Fop’s Great Justice #1: The angry 3-letter word

Or, why the people who stomp Left 4 Dead pubs are hopeless.

I am starting to develop a reputation as “that guy who refuses to play against pubs” in the Steam L4D group I frequent. For every person on my friends list who is playing Left 4 Dead and pubstomping in Versus, you can rest assured that none of them will ever bother inviting me into their games.

Well, almost all. I was quite surprised to be offered to take part in a pubstomp by one of my Steam friends about thirty minutes ago:

Friend: Wanna join me in raping some pubs?

Me: You just uttered the 3-letter word. No thanks.

I flatly rejected his request.

I blame this repugnant “pub raping” culture (also known as pubstomping among L4D players) for the current state of our local L4D community. Everyone is so used to pubstomping that when an in-house team comes along and hands them a defeat, their mettle starts to crumble and the excuses start coming:

  1. “I don’t want to play in-house, too stressful.”
  2. “I don’t want to lose.”
  3. “The top teams are taking part… don’t want to play.”

That was the reason why I was unable to form a team to take part in Operation: Blackstorm, a competition that I desperately wanted to play. There were no registration fees, nothing to lose (with some cash and a 1TB Western Digital hard drive to win) – and yet my teammates still had no balls to compete.

Yes, we all know that Wallhackers, MolotoX or Vertex are probably going to end up the winners anyway. Sure, it takes guts and a whole lot of faith to go up against the big boys. The thing is, you never know what’s going to happen until you man up and take that leap of faith.

While I was spectating the finals at Operation Blackstorm, the underdog team, [TTS], surprised me by completely wiping out WCG champions mTx.wH early on in the first map of No Mercy. I was expecting an easy win for mTx.wH and yet here they were, getting pwned on the first map by an unknown team.

So, to every team and player that took part in Operation Blackstorm, WCG ’09, Zombie Mania or Left 4 Dead or Alive, I salute your bravery and courage. Without your participation, none of those competitions would have been possible.

To the rest of you: start playing more in-house matches and take part in future competitions. Who cares if you lose? You’re not at the arcade. You’re not using up tokens as you play. What have you got to lose?

You might just end up with the memory of incapacitating the WCG champions.

Playing L4D exclusively on Steam, I’m unsure if this pubstomping culture applies to Garena. Last I heard, Garena pubs were way better than Steam pubs. Any Garena players willing to shed some light on this? Also, the skill and intelligence level of pubs on Steam has dropped tremendously. How can you pubstompers stand playing against such opponents?

Have your say. Add your comments:

  • LordFa9

    i’ve been trying my hardest to stay out of the non-stop flying flaming balls of immaturity going around here, and though i wouldnt mind it going on for my personl amusement this must stop.

    Fop’s article is about his personal tale of being unable to form a competition team not through the lack of skills or maybe oppotunity, but the underlying fear of losing, public embarassment and helplessness against more skilled opponents.

    Instead of being introspective about your own personal flaws and the flaws ofthe communtiy as a whole and taking this as something to learn and grow; [b]YOU LOUTS ARE HERE INSULTING EACH OTHER, MOCKING EACH OTHER’S THEORIES AND GENERALLY PROVING WHAT IMMATURE BRATS YOU ALL ARE[/b]

    I havent been here long, but from what i’ve seen i can say this: I’M FUCKING ASHAMED TO SAY THAT I, YES ME, LORDFA9 AM [b]SINGAPOREAN[/b] in any gaming circles whatsoever. Ever since i’ve been aware of this site, everytime some non-SGP/MA person in game asks me where i’m from and i give him a straight answer i always have an irrational fear that the moment of silence after that is them recalling what one of my idiotic countrymen did or said to them.

    And we wonder why we cant succeed in international team gaming competitions…

    I also have my own theories on how this came about (Fop’s prob and everything underlying) but all i can hint is to go to asiafortress’s intro yourself thread and ask your parents

    EDIT: if you need more evidence, go to a cybercafe and join a tf2pickup, then pretend you don’t know anybody or anything and see how you are treated

  • DomeJr

    @ Mata

    Oh at your point on Garena players, my long statement somewhere in the middle of my wall of text about the huge skill gap and exponentially increasing amount of casual/quitting players as compared to the miniscule amount of competetive players was talking about it, I think.

  • DomeJr

    @ Mata, Neth

    Just following the norm that I observed when I first joined GS.

    Shamelessly researching on people who’s posts they dislike both via the forum and google, as well as having a lesser opinion on those of a younger age.


    I “dedicated” 3 years into TF2, and I haven’t gotten more than 60 hours of gameplay into any class.

    So considering I “dedicated” 6 months into L4D…Yeah, I’m sure he could “steamroll” me, no doubt about it.


    Interesting. But I’m sure you understand my statement was made on your debatable 3rd point, and not your most not-debatable 1st and 2nd points.


    What’s new?


    Hi & welcome to GS :)

  • d0uf00s

    @Glim: Thanks for the welcome =) And yea, the forum is kinda dead >.< The last post in the l4d thread dated back to dec 2008 @.@ Perhaps foruming in this site has evolved into commenting on a writer's article? XD

  • Glimmerous.Fop


    Welcome to GameSync buddy.


    Congratulations on making FGJ#1 the most commented article in GameSync history: 40 comments and counting! It has even surpassed the spam comments posted in the dreaded HoN beta key article announcement.

    I just hope that you guys can translate the same level of enthusiasm and discussion from the comments page to the forums.

    We have an entire forum for you guys to bitch, moan, and flame to your hearts’ content. Make good use of it! Go ahead and start new threads on whatever topic you like and don’t be afraid to reply to others with nonsensical babble.

  • Malice

    +1 related to rat’s comment.

    HOLLA L4D. o/

  • d0uf00s

    Man, after reading this post (and partially because I am bored to death searching for journal articles), I just can’t help but to sign up for an account to comment! XD

    First and foremost, I sincerely feel your pain, fop, I really do, if only I were a sporean… Sadly, quite a number of friends in my steam list have also fully committed themselves to pubstomping. In fact, the first question that they ask when I invite them to play with me is:

    Friend: Hey, is this an in house or pub stomp?

    Nonetheless, it is not without reason that these people do not like to in house. As much as it is logical in every sense to IMPROVE your l4ding skills by pitting it against others more proer than you, it also brings a lot of stress and pressure along with it. I, for one (although I have no probs playing in house), will sweat intensely when I am in a challenging in house while I pray silently for a good game. You really have to have a strong mentality to face defeat over and over again (take note that these defeats are hours-long instead of minute-long KOes in street fighter or KOF). At times, these defeats somehow numb your mind, and probably give you a minor case of migraine.

    Another reason to explain their constant pub stomping is that pubstomping is a no-brainer activity. Although one might consider it stupid not to use your brains, playing pub stomp offers you these zen-like moments where everything and anything you do is somehow “right.” This is indeed one great selling point as some gamers see games as a means to relax, chill out, and be happy instead of a test or a challenge in life (they probably have enough of that from their course assignments and exams).

    All in all, the only way I see my friends coming back into the in house scene is probably to slowly coax them out of their comfort zones by hoping that we will stumble upon an all-friends team in our pubstomps to show them that playing a game against all friends is not THAT hard after all.

  • insignia

    @ domejr

    1) I play less because I got tired of the lack of competitiveness in Garena and of course, tournaments.
    2) I know for a fact I have played more top level L4D than you have, so my opinion does count.
    3) Not playing anymore doesnt mean I know less. The game
    hasn’t changed drastically to the point where my opinions
    are obselete and outdated.

    *edit* i wont bother calling you out on a match since i dont have anything i need to prove to you. If you wanna combat my statement, you can find me in Garena, nick’s insi9nia. Or just ask for any Avant Garde member.


  • insignia


  • RaTsYc|-

    lol, 36 comments, half are on regards to the article and the other halves are regarding dome’s comment.

  • Neth

    @Dome, I don’t understand why you bring up IanDaow’s age, since you’re only 1 or 2 years older only?

  • IanDaow


    i have no ides what that has got to do with the issue at hand. you’re saying the majority of players of l4d are a minority? is that it?

    i have no idea what that has got to do with the idea, and calling people to stfu for apparently not playing anymore is not paying due respect to your fellow peers. i have no doubt even in his retirement he could always “steamroll” you.

    if you wish to discuss further in this context, i wouldn’t be surprised if some people around here would call you out for a match, and i’ve no doubt about a dodger when i see one. one who fights with irrelevant words to prove irrelevant points.

    they want to boycott l4d2. so be it. their choice. you’ve got a problem?

  • Neth

    Pubstompers and dodgers, grow some balls, thanks. (:

  • Matafleur

    I think you severely underestimate just how many L4D players there are in both Singapore and Malaysia, and don’t have an idea of where these people play.

    In Malaysia, almost all L4D games are played not on Steam or even Garena, but in cybercafes. To see just how active (and sizeable) the competitive scene is in Malaysia, just look at the turn out for WD Operation Blackstorm over there.

    It’s the same in Singapore, with a huge playerbase playing exclusively in cybercafes and others on Garena at home. Just because they didn’t buy the game (*cough* Garena pirates *cough*) and are not on Steam doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. It’s just that in Singapore the playerbase is heavily skewed towards casual play, with a far smaller percentage of core/competitive players than our neighbours up north.

    Also, I don’t see your point in bringing up IanDaow’s age. You have a problem with that? Please look at yourself. Let’s not bring age, gender or any other irrelevant personal details into the discussion. He wants to play the game his way, that’s his perogative/problem.

  • DomeJr

    And if you are wondering why i asked insignia to shut it, it is simply because of the statement, “Besides i hardly play anymore”.

    If you got a problem with that, just too bad. Deal with it.

    Not gonna waste my time writing more mega walls of texts to explain myself. kthxbye <3

  • insignia

    I agree with mG despite the fact that he thinks tight skinny jeans on guys are hot.

    @ domejr – im sorry but who are you again?

  • pinkyandbrain


    wtf no link with regards to the fact on mG.

  • mG2


    Enlightenment in progress… Oh wait… what???

  • DomeJr

    I blame L4D2 AND its boycotters.

  • Matafleur

    @DomeJr What?

  • MayaArcana

    @DomeJr: lolwut?

  • Maddcap

    @dome: what?

  • IanDaow

    we should seriously start ignoring dome.

    also, muse, you raise a valid point. i, however, can get my kick from doing as i am now.

  • DomeJr



    04/05/1994 (15)


    Member for
    22 hours 1 min

    yeah okay we should all listen to you.

    @The three M-s, Mata, Mad and Maya.

    Basically, it’s because of L4D2 Boycotters that refuse to play L4D1 and/or purchase L4D2 in protest of Valve’s actions that which the current L4D pool of active players in Singapore and Malaysia is extremely low. Not to mention that the competetive scene only constitutes for less than 40% of the actual pool of active players for practically all Valve games since 2002. Considering the fact that the Boycotters only aggravated the situation without putting forth a solution that did not drastically affect the L4D community negatively on a whole, and that with a whole chunk of L4D regulars missing from the scene, we are left with mainly very professional L4D players, and mainly very unprofessional L4D players. Such a natural divide is inevitable if we take into account most Asian gamers’ mentalities (save for Koreans, whom are mainly hardcore gamers), both in terms of dedication to a particular trend, as well as their lack of courage to play against a stronger team that will almost certainly steamroll them.

    Thus, since L4D2 Boycotters only came into existence shortly after the announcement of L4D2, I therefore blame both the release of L4D2 as well as its boycotters.

    Quite simple, really.

  • Glimmerous.Fop

    @IanDaowMy frustration stems from the inability to form a team with the Steam friends I know in order to take part in a competition.It’s a terrible waste because I know that those friends in particular have great talent and chemistry when playing together, but they are just severely lacking in the testicular fortitude department.Yes, you raise a good point on the merits of playing pub games, and yes, not everybody plays games competitively. But can’t we play competitively and still have fun in the process?@D24I feel like writing such topics so I write lor.

  • mG2


    “i once played with inhousers. i stopped. as above Maya had stated, i simply dont have the time or commitment to wait for a game thats supposed to start an hour ago, and had to be reorganised as all the players had gone on and did their own stuff.

    Although some might argue over quality of gameplay, i would ask, what are you doing for the 1 hr you are waiting before your inhouse? gossiping on the lobby? at least i’m getting some sort of kick from screwing with pubs, or doing soemthing lulz worthy. However, its all on perspective, and this is my view.

    i might not have as much time as others. It seems that there is always a guy who needed do something, who’s always missing, wasting my time.”

    [b]Well obviously you’ve been playing with the wrong people. Anyone matured enough would know it’s only responsible to play the game because he has already agreed to.[/b]

    [b]If you’re someone who don’t usually have much time, you’d know that spending time pub-raping(which to me is completely fun-less because they all leave after the first two attacks) isn’t time-efficient, and simply doing something else, hopefully productive, while waiting for the inhouse is a much smarter plan.[/b]

    “i ask you, are all of us competitive players? do we spend 2 hours in a room practising? or are we just a couple of guys who have a few hours to kill everyday?”

    [b]Well firstly, you have contradicted yourself with the later two sentences. Secondly, do we have to be competitive players to have the will to improve? Thirdly, everyone has some competitiveness, for instance, when playing a regular game you want to win, not lose. You’ll chide your teammate for sucking and making your loss. You want to be better than others. These are all examples of competitiveness. [/b]


    In my opinion pub-stompers are losers who generally take the easy-path(and then get lost) in life. I believe if one doesnt have the ability he should at least have the attitude. I’ve no respect for such people. And so I always rape pub-rapers if I ever encounter them in any game.


  • Malice

    sup l4d homies

  • D24

    what so scare of playing in-house game completing them. those who play compy is to learn and polish skill their skill.. And from what i see from L4D most of the team players is make up of CS 1.6 players. FPS IS FUN!!!
    And this topic is a childish post. Is up to yr free will dnt in house then dnt join lo.. wan play pub play lo

  • Pinkribbons

    IanDaow (Y)

    I like your point dude.

  • insignia

    In Garena, the community is pretty tight and most people
    know who the better ones are, so most of the top players
    end up using anonymous nicks to join pub games.

    Based on personal experiences, I would say there are 3 tier of players in Garena.

    Tier 1
    WCG players (wH, mTx, AG, etc)

    Tier 2
    SOP players (non-competitive inhouse players)

    Tier 3

    T1 players are usually self sufficient and hardly bother to try getting an entire team of reliable players during pub games. Pub games are just … well.. pub games to them. T1 players usually know where they stand and cant be bothered fueling their ego by trying to edge an entire team into their side.

    The main problem lies in T2 players.
    There are a particular few that want to learn and dont mind losing, but the majority are losers stuck in their well of protection and lament/cl_excuse/quit/suicide whenever a T1
    player or team enters the game on the opposition. Amazingly, i’ve seen players being stuck in T2 forever, no matter how many inhouses they’ve played, I’ve not seen them improve at all. They also tend to congregate to circlejerk and pubrape, but whenever a T1 player offers a match or inhouse game, they back down. Classic example? Clan EMN, team Awesome, EsF.

  • pinkyandbrain

    nonsense, garena pubs are the worst you can ever find. and yes, most people will sneak into pub games using annoymous nick. and i strongly agree with insignia with regards to the main problems with t2 people.

  • Maddcap

    garena pubs? worst? no, personally i think garena pubs > steam pubs in terms of skill. but garena pubs tend to be a little bit more arrogant den steam pubs

  • insignia

    they think they know, you mean.

  • insignia

    oh and btw, Vertex has retired, AG is semi-active as we have 1 player mia and i think only wH and mTx holding the fort now. lol

  • ZenZeZ

    Hmm , Clan EMN, team Awesome, EsF. They establish recently only uh?

  • pinkyandbrain

    some garena pubs do have personal skills, i do agree with it.

    and yes, EMN, awesome and EsF just established.

    angelicheart<< EMN

    Awesome << Mrgreen

    EsF << Cant rmb who.

  • pinkyandbrain

    but seriously even t1 teams, sometimes when we offered them for a friendly game of 4, they wont accept too. *looks around*

  • ZenZeZ

    “In Garena, the community is pretty tight and most people
    know who the better ones are, so most of the top players
    end up using anonymous nicks to join pub games.”
    -Quoted from insignia.

    This wouldn’t be a problem if your using STEAM.

  • insignia

    I dont remember saying this was a problem.
    Besides i hardly play anymore.

  • Maddcap

    chill guys.

  • DomeJr


    “I dont remember saying this was a problem.
    Besides i hardly play anymore.”

    Okay. So shut up then.

    @TS Fop

    Well. TF2 had/has this problem too .. :

  • LordFa9

    nay i say steam vs pubs are the worst, you can get votekicked for a fail boom or saving your pounced teammate 1 sec later than he expects you to


    you should have just posted in the forums asking for a team.

    If i knew you were taking such a non-serious attitude to winning/losing (unlike most of the people here) and was going for the experience and [b](WARNING DIRTY WORD AHEAD)[/b] [u][i]fun[/i][/u] (there i said it) i’d have joined you gladly


    i see you are still perpetually angry, got your blood pressure checked lately?

  • MayaArcana


    I started off playing on Garena, and moved on to Steam simply because at the lanshop I just couldn’t bear to sit around and wait for an inhouse game that was supposed to start at 8.30pm, but starts at 9pm-10pm instead.

    But to compare Steam and Garena players, I don’t have many comments except that Steam players don’t seem to have a high level of tolerance. They’ll just kick you if you don’t do something OR do something that displeases them…

    …like typing too much. Srsly. I got kicked for typing just one sentence (I refuse to use my mic in pub games anymore simply due to the fact that everyone thinks I’m 1. a young kid who can’t play OR 2. an Indian. I’m more pissed with #1 though (There was once 3 guys from the same lanshop thought I was a guy when I joined the LAN game, and then I asked them to tell me where they were sitting so that after the game I could go over and whoop their face with my mousepad, then they kicked me)

    So, I believe we’re currently stereotyping. What was the main topic again?

    Garena players tend to be somewhat nicer – more friendly. Like, if you ask who has mic and who’s leading/willing to lead, they will (mostly) respond either by talking or typing. You don’t see that in Steam coz most players #1 don’t understand English or #2 can’t be bothered replying.

    Okay, done.

  • IanDaow


    why the hell are you asking people to shut up for no reason at all? he was right in pointing out.

    i suppose you need the attention given by two commenters now, do you?

    anyway, my point of view on all this is for me, well, since for the simple economy of being able to finish two games instead of one if i chose pub stomping with my friends rather than joining an inhouse, i chose to play more over a shorter time.

    i once played with inhousers. i stopped. as above Maya had stated, i simply dont have the time or commitment to wait for a game thats supposed to start an hour ago, and had to be reorganised as all the players had gone on and did their own stuff.

    Although some might argue over quality of gameplay, i would ask, what are you doing for the 1 hr you are waiting before your inhouse? gossiping on the lobby? at least i’m getting some sort of kick from screwing with pubs, or doing soemthing lulz worthy. However, its all on perspective, and this is my view.

    i might not have as much time as others. It seems that there is always a guy who needed do something, who’s always missing, wasting my time.

    i only join IH when its immediate, or a PUG, or somebody else asked me to.

    now, do i “get nearly an entire team of reliable players” during my pub games?

    no. i do not. usually, sean hosts and i join. other than that, no. sometimes, a couple of friends join in, and we play together. what’s wrong with that?

    you say excessive pub stomping attitude is detriminal to improvement of skills and gameplay style.

    of course, it is better to “play inhouse” and gain new insight. but what is wrong with doing the latter.

    i ask you, are all of us competitive players? do we spend 2 hours in a room practising? or are we just a couple of guys who have a few hours to kill everyday?

    with that, i leave with the question of whether such attitudes towards pub-rape players are stemmed from the frustration of trying to get players for an inhouse/match.

  • mG2


    The problem actually lies in DomeJr. He really reminds me of the short and angry little dwarfs in Runescape(level 18).

    I don’t agree with Singapore not having success in international team gaming competitions. With our current lack of media exposure and sponsors, I’d say we’re doing quite well. In the previous ESWC 2007/8(the only international LAN DotA competition ever held), Singapore and Malaysia ranked #1 and #2 respectively, with MYM(the most famous and publicized DotA team ever with very strong sponsors backing them) coming in behind them. Since then, more top teams have been springing out and proving to be a real threat to Zenith/Kingsurf(which previously represented Singapore/Malaysia respectively in ESWC, they have now merged to become a single team), often taking the top spot off them. Examples of such teams are XtC, Axis, and Team Little.

    I’ve pretty much proved my point about Singapore’s dominance in DotA. Now think of a popular game which a country singlehandedly dominates in?

    CS1.6: Changes every year, Poland, Sweden, US, Denmark, Germany. At a recent international event which Singapore took part in they made it to the top 16 and nearly beat a top team, Alternate attax, losing only 13-17

    Warcraft 3: No fixed at all, Germany(Grubby), China(Sky), Korea(Moon), Russia(Happy).